Blab #16: The Power of Brand Storytelling

Tom Haslam - (host):

Welcome to Marketing Labs. This podcast is brought to you by Marketing Labs, an expert digital marketing agency based in Nottinghamshire. If you're a business owner or marketing professional looking for straightforward non-salesy tips and advice to help grow your business online, then this podcast is for you. Strap in because we're about to reveal the things that other agencies would rather you didn't know. Hello again, we're back for another episode of Marketing Labs. Today we're going to be exploring the art and impact of brand storytelling, a crucial strategy for any business looking to connect with their audience. I'm your host, Tom Haslum and the creative director here at Marketing Labs. I'm also joined from the ML team, our fantastic head of content. Mel, how are you doing, Mel? I'm good.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Thank you Tom, good to be here

Tom Haslam - (host):

We're also very thrilled to have a special guest with us today, Clare Froggat from Make a Brew. Clare has over 24 years of experience in branding, digital marketing and graphic design. She founded her branding agency Maker Brew in 2019. She combines both creative and strategic thinking, a rare commodity in digital marketing. Her clients describe her as determined and her golf handicap certainly attest to that. She'd almost certainly whoop my ass at a round of golf,

Unknown Speaker - (?):

And I should have read this before. I knew you weren't read it. I scripted it. You've absolutely done me a kipper there, but it probably too

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Claire's a award winning,

Tom Haslam - (host):

But Claire, it's good to have you here. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. We ought to have a round of golf at some point

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I would love a round of golf for you

Tom Haslam - (host):

Because I want to beat you now. You can, yeah,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Have a go. It depends on the weather and the day and the ball.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Oh dear. That is brilliant, Mel. You've absolutely done me

Unknown Speaker - (?):

There, but good effort. But yeah, thank you for being here, clay. It's

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Good to have you. No problem. Happy to be here.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Apart from obviously trekking through Redford to

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Get you. Yeah, it was nice to have a tour of Redford because my sat, I've sacked because the postcard I put in, I checked it three times and I went to the other side of Retford. So anyway, that's ideal. Good. Anyway, good afternoon. Anyway,

Tom Haslam - (host):

You're here anyway and thanks for coming. And we're here to talk about brand storytelling then. Yes. So I guess a good place to start, just tell us what you think brand storytelling means to you and why it's vital in marketing all round.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think stories of throughout the length of time, however far back you go, story is a way of learning and explaining information and passing things on. So most of storytelling in the work I focus on comes in the brand identities and the visual side of things, and I always want, if you look at somebody's logo, it needs a reason. Why does it look like that? What is the story behind that? It goes much deeper than that, which I'm sure we'll explore in the podcast, but for me, a story is a good way to stand out from the crowd. We've all got our own stories, some compliment each other, some overlap, but they're all individual and all our own and the way that we tell 'em. So if you've got a story for your business and you've got staff and they can buy into that, they could come compassionate about it and it's easy to explain what you do and how you work through storytelling. And people like to listen to stories, they like to listen to podcasts.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, we always say it's about being authentic in it with your audience. Then they're going to connect with you on a different level. It's not just about the visual identity side. I saw on your website you mentioned something about an iceberg. Yes. Brandon is like an iceberg. The visual is the tip. You see that part, but underneath the story is the bit that matters really, isn't

Clare Froggat - (guest):

It? Yeah, it's the strategy, the story, it's part of the vision, the mission, all those or the technical terms and things. It's pulling it all together and making what you do and the way you do it, telling it your way.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah. I'd be interested to learn what your thoughts are on brand storytelling. Mel, from a content side, it sounds like me and Claire are quite strong on the visual side, but also a bit of both, but you a bit different. What does it mean to you?

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah, so I mean content marketing is one way of telling a story, but there are lots of other ways. So that's just one of the tactics that you can use a way of anchoring everything I think as well because you've got that to go back to. So central to everything that you do should be your values and that should run through absolutely every marketing tactic that you've got and that includes content. So I come back to that a lot in the things that I write for our clients.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's about always referring to that so that your messaging comes across and it's consistent I guess, and tackling that consistency

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Is absolutely key. Consistency and repetition.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, I guess a good place to go following on from that would be like when you're working with clients, how do you unlock their story? Do you have a specific method that you do? Do you have a little, I dunno, just chat to 'em. Probably the easiest way in it. I just talk to 'em,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Ask 'em questions, I'm curious, I'm interested, I want to know why they do what they do, where did they start? What did they do before they did this? If you're working with somebody that's a blank page or you're rebranding and it's creating something new, it's really important to get all and tease the elements out of that story from the client. If like a recent client I've worked with, you're doing it from the other end where they've already got an identity, they don't really want to change it, they love it. You can go, well, tell me about what you do and then you can kind of wrap a story around it. I'm quite good at seeing things like that and pulling rabbits out of hats if you like, and finding out from the client what they like and what they're interested in and then applying the right story to it so they can begin to use storytelling as part of their expansion. Amplifies a word I'm working on this year that'll be featuring some of my work and content, but you're starting off and you want to tell more people about what you do and grow things. Obviously you guys with the marketing stuff and the content, if you've got a really solid core and foundation like story, then it's easier to build it and grow it because stories get told and people talk about you and they talk about stories.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Absolutely. How I used to do it at Holo was I used to run what I called a juicer session to try and squeeze all the juice out and I used to do this brand deck thing, have you seen the brand deck cards? I used to do that with the clients, which was quite cool. Effectively it's just talking to them in it. Everyone's got a story and they've been on a journey they, I always used to struggle with writing about it or getting it into sections on the website and things like that. I can make it look good. That's why we use people like that. Exactly, yeah,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

You've got to be nosy. I'm a really person, you are quite nosy. I overhear things in the office and I've always done that wherever I've worked because you would be surprised how much you learn by overhearing things that you weren't necessarily meant to, and then if you sort of then go and investigate that a bit more, it can turn into something bigger and become a really good story. It's sort of like what a journalist would say is having a nose for a good story. It's being able to find it and to know it when you found it

Clare Froggat - (guest):

And uncover it and get more depth out of it. I think like you say there, the things that you will observe from being a creative, whether it be visual or written, the questions that you ask get the right things out. People say to me all the time, oh, I'm not creative. I go, you are, but you just don't know how.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah, yeah, and that's really interesting actually because when you eventually tease out somebody's story from a person, it's not a big deal for somebody looking in and hearing their story. It is because they're hearing it for the first time you are living it, so you just think, this is me, this is what I do, this is the norm, this is the life I've lived. So they don't tell you, they don't necessarily volunteer that information because they don't think it's important and it's only when you go, God, really? Wow, that's really cool actually. And they go, is it? Yeah. I think people would really appreciate hearing that, knowing that, reading it.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I've any of you got any examples of when a story impacted a strategy? Yeah,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Man, I go something in contrast a bit more. I say local, but they're actually American. The client I talk about I was working with, they work with people who were recovering from addictions of all types, so the identity they've got the logo looks when I first looked that's been done on clip park. It's just five circles solid so they don't look like the Olympic circles and I even arranged in two layers and using different shades of purple, why did you do that? And she was like, we just needed an identity kind of. It came from somewhere. I was like, alright, okay. To me you are called journey and those circles are the steps in the journey. So if you start in recovery, you take the first step and actually it bugged me at first because the circles aren't equal if distance apart, but actually that's good because when you take the first step it's the biggest step and as you get closer to the end or achieving the end goal, the step's not as big as the first one.

Unknown Speaker - (?):

So I really liked that I can look at that and go, oh, you could do this and it could wrap that, and she's like going, wow, that's awesome. And that's what I really like about working with brands or businesses to tease out that story if they can't see it because of our different experience in working in these different sectors and the way that we curious and question and get ideas from the supermarket or the tellier, you'll just go and then you apply it to something different. That's then given them the ability to use that story to then expand the brand and grow it without changing it. It's evolving it. I made them transparent so you've got some different shit in the overlap rather than just straightforward and she was like, oh yeah, I like that. It's evolved. We've not redesigned it. That how you can apply a story to something different through analysing and looking at and teasing out actually what does that business or organisation or even person do? How do they do it? Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

How many times do you find when people come for a new visual identity that they don't really think about the story? They just think, oh, I just needed a logo

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Quite often, which is why I put, I think Mel might have written that blog quite a while ago, but that a brand's not just a logo because branding's quite a popular word to throw around and it means different things to different people. A logo is the easiest thing because it's the most common thing that we see, so I'll always ask them either what they do. I had a guy that came the other week who was locally found me through looking at Google and I lived locally to him and he came to me and said, oh, I need a business card. Okay, what's your business called? Just welding services. Okay. What are you wanting to do? Well, I'm nearly retiring, but I don't want to do a lot of work. I just want to work through garages and do bits of welding on cars went right, you don't need a logo then you just need it to say welding, so we'll make it big and bold and black.

Unknown Speaker - (?):

We need another colour really, it's just going to be black and white. Welding services don't really have to be a specific colour, so what do you like? Don't really know. What football team do you follow? Right blue. Okay, well use that blue and black so then it'll stand out a little bit and we'll just make your business card look professional. He's happy as Larry, I didn't need to charge him for a logo, he doesn't need it. Whereas another company will come and I'll say, well, what are you wanting do and how are you wanting to grow your business? Where do you want it to be in 3, 5, 10 years? Oh, I can't think that far ahead. All right. Then one year, who do you look up to in the marketplace? Is there anybody that does what you do or do you do something that you think is totally different?

Unknown Speaker - (?):

There might be little bits that overlap. It's really hard to do something unique these days and then you just tease it out of them and then come up with a visual that represents an aspect of what they do. My favourite one is they come on, oh, I want it to be red. Well, what kind of red pillow box? Red mill or wine red? And they go, oh, right, yeah. We as designers look at tones and shades and colours and things and I think people that aren't necessarily creative in that way or they'll go, I really like this colour of paint. You want that on a website. Eventually you want to use it online and it's yellow and you can't read that on white. It doesn't stand out very well. So if we made it gold or we made the background dark and then you can just tease

Unknown Speaker - (?):

About it. So teaching them in a sense, and I think you find different people want to get involved and other people are just go, go make it happen.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

They're the best people,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

They're great.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

I love those people, they're

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Great. But equally I love a knowing I don't like it as much as a yes because then you kind of go, well, the opposite and you've got something to grab hold

Tom Haslam - (host):

Of. No, definitely. Yeah,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah. Better than disinterest

Tom Haslam - (host):

When it comes down to logo concept in what you can always go on mad and give them loads of concepts, but then choice fatigue kicks in and they're like, oh, be like that. I just always try to do one or two really focused concepts and let 'em choose, but still you find they'll get overwhelmed and they're like, oh, I don't dunno. I dunno. Ultimately it's just trying to keep the process simple in't it really.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Yeah, and I usually give them the bullet pointed version of why it looks like it does in the hint of the story in the logo. Then they'll still not always see it. Yeah, I love that, the

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Rationale and that's my favourite bit of it. Yeah,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Just a simple one, not the full nine yards, so to speak, and just get 'em to buy into it. And that usually helps 'em make a decision. They can see the why behind it.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yes. Yeah, because it's so subjective, isn't it? But if you've give them a why they've got something to grab hold of it

Tom Haslam - (host):

Is that, oh, I can see why they've done that moment. They're the good moments. I want to talk a little bit about emotion within the storytelling side because obviously not everyone's got an emotional story. Is it important to evoke emotions when there is an emotional core behind the business or something?

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think that well, a key emotion for every business owner. For me, there should be a passion either behind what it is they're doing or the end result that they're providing. So that for me should go into every business. Some business owners will need specific types of emotion, like I've done charity work for hospital charity, so they obviously need the caring and the community side of emotion in the visual and what they do and how they promote what they do. Whereas if you're working with somebody, an engineering or technical, they don't need that. They're more like precision and checking and different kind of specific technical type emotions that your peace of mind sorts of things that you are aiming for at the end. But for me, you can find passion in what somebody does and tease that out of them and bring that out of them. Sometimes it's hard because we're not all creative and talkative and talk with our hands like me and things like that. We present it in a different way, but if you can find something and help clients tell their story in their way and show them how it can be authentic, we are just visionaries in that sense. Yeah,

Tom Haslam - (host):

Absolutely.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah. I think it depends on the industry and the product and what you're trying to achieve. For me, when I worked for the police and we worked on campaigns that were quite hard hitting things about gun knife crime for example, emotion played a huge part of it in storytelling, and that's because you were trying to change a person's behaviour as all marketing does, it's trying to influence a person's behaviour and this needed an emotional component to be able to do that. For one particular campaign, we told the story of somebody who'd been affected by gun crime, which was incredibly emotional because it was a mother whose son had died and that worked very well in that instance. But that's not going to work for every kind of campaign, every kind of product and different industries, it's just about tapping into the right sort of motivator. Emotion won't always work. Sometimes you have to be more rational, pragmatic, functional.

Tom Haslam - (host):

There has to be a reason why it's in there. There's no point just shoving something emotional in there if there's no reason behind it. There's got to be a reason so that police one is perfect example, especially from a content perspective because you've got to get that across. You're tackling a problem and you want to help solve it through content.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think triggers sometimes can help tease stories out. So if you working with a business, whether it on the marketing side, on the content or on the brand side and developing that, you can look at things that they've done either as a business or a person and tease that out and use the things that they tell you through conversation. And I find, like Mel said with this, sometimes you overhear things from a third party conversation that spark an idea or something resonate. The more conversations you can have with the people you're working with, I think that's where it comes down to the fact you work with people who've got similar values to you and it's easier for those conversations to come. Then you can find things that you uncover in a more casual and less formal sort of fashion. And sometimes people be like being interviewed, I don't want to divulge those things.

Tom Haslam - (host):

No, actually I'm completely opposite to Mel. I can't keep my ears open if I'm doing something, if I'm in it, I'm in it. Whereas Melly is everything to be careful what you say. It's

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

The best way though. It's the best way of finding out. Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

How do you do that when you're writing content though? You're in the middle of a blog unless you've got your earphones.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

I'm not very good at owning out though. I've never been very good at that. I really need concentrate. I have to be in a silent room. It's a

Tom Haslam - (host):

Good skill to have, I think.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah, I wish I could be more like you and just be in the

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, but then you'd miss out on all the juicy bits of a story.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

This is true. This is true. I mean a really good example, I hope you don't mind me saying this, Claire is your business, your story. So why are you called Make a Brew? Because I think this is a great, yeah,

Tom Haslam - (host):

It'd be a good talking point

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Actually. Great. Yeah, really great talking

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Point. Somebody said it the other day, actually it goes on the top of my quotes and things. When it came up, I'd been sat there, came up with the idea to start this business, the third business. I didn't want it to be called mine aim because then you're attached to it too much. And I was writing on a piece of paper and I thought, I've already had my genius ideas with two other businesses and I just said to the dog, oh, let's make a brew. And she went, no. If you know me personally, oh well, you'll see on the video thing, we have to have a cup. I usually refer to it as a bucket. If you give me a small hotel cup, I don't like it. So make a brew something. That's the words and it's the language I use. Some people make a cup, I say it's the north of England, but not specifically when you go to somebody's house or you start a meeting when I walked in here today or do you want a drink?

Unknown Speaker - (?):

Well, I go, am I making a brew? Is tea easy it coffee or on a certain time of day it might be coming to Pinett pot for me. You don't start a conversation or a meeting without that custom of offering somebody a refreshment. And I thought, well, you can't start a good conversation without that. I like talking to people and I like talking, great talking, make a Brew was designed for that. And then when I had to come up with my own visual identity, which is the hardest thing in the world, so critical on your own stuff, you can do it for standing on your head with your eyes shut for everybody else, I thought, oh, the top of a cup, it's round and there's a little handle on it. I thought, yeah, but you don't have a conversation yourself normally I thought, oh two, it looks like a sexual health symbol.

Unknown Speaker - (?):

Don't want that. So I thought, all right, go there. He goes, three cups, and then they make one bigger and two the other size. So the idea is that you look down on the top of cups and it's a bit quirky and it's a bit fun, a bit like me, depending who's looking or interested, and that's where the name comes from and I still get it now. Oh, you're a cafe? No, but we can go to one conversation if you want or I can spin it round. But that's where that story is me and because I run my business, it's quite easy for that and that's what I try and tease out of other people.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And the thing is as well, it comes back to what you said earlier about passion because when you tell that story, you can see the passion there.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

And that's the amazing thing about stories is they are full of personality. And so when you read it as somebody who might then become a customer of that person, you are looking for things that will tell you you're going to get on with them and that sort of things where you can say, oh, me too, that me Too moment is so important. You're looking for things that you can identify with that you would be happy to put your name to. And so when I read that on Claire's website, when I first met her, a number of things struck me. Number one, she's clearly from Yorkshire and I am so I loved that straight away. Number two, she's obviously laid back, doesn't take things too seriously. And again, that's me. I like that. I don't like stuffy and corporate and that kind of thing. Obviously passionate and good at what you do because you've just done it there. So that straight away for me, I thought that's great, and I already felt like I'd got something in common with you before we'd even met. That's the power of telling a story. It's so full of personality.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think some people are kind of maybe scared or dare give too much of themselves away. I think you're right in what they do professionally. Absolutely. And there's arguments on both sides. Some people have definitely that's work and that's not, or it overlaps, but I just thought, I can't be bothered. I don't want to be somebody else and go, I'm in work mode. Alright, I can concentrate and be a bit more serious in work mode and whatever. You and me, wherever you find me, I go in the golf club and they go, do you want a drink? Are your tea in a bucket? Sports Direct one, bring your tea pot and a little cup like the lamb

Tom Haslam - (host):

You makes me worried now. Is that big enough cup fine? It's fine,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

It's fine. The worst ones are the ones you go to those hotels, you can't even put your finger in the thing to pick it up. They're like, I don't want a thimble. And I make people walk in a cafe. I've never been in there. I have a bucket of tea, please. And they go Just a big cup.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, a tea bag out. You got a compliment from Josh on a brew earlier.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah, well it was a coffee and I'm not very good at making coffee because I never drink a lot of it, but apparently I made a good coffee, so I'll take that

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Diversified. Excellent.

Tom Haslam - (host):

No, I think that is a great story to be honest and for you to come on here and we understand now what Maker Brew is, which makes the pod even more, well, it makes the pod a lot better and valuable for people because they understand your story now. But I want to talk about how do you measure the effectiveness of a story once it's, let's say you've done the visual identity, you've done the website, you've done the words that have gone on it. How do we then measure how effective that's been? That's the tough part.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think it's one of the hardest things to measure when you're looking at KPIs on marketing return and all those kind of technical clever things. I think it's the more people that know it. If you tend to be more smaller businesses, you do a lot of networking, you meet other people and people know you from the story. I go to places now and they're like, oh, are we having a brew? And they actually point at me and talk about it. I think the more that you hear it from outside of you pushing that content out there and information, it's working and getting out there. Now not everybody knows my story of why the logo looks like it doesn't a talking point sometimes when you explain it, especially making people laugh on the quirky side of where it came from. And I do that on purpose also a way that I work and I like to bring humour into it and I'm not everybody's cup either.

Unknown Speaker - (?):

There's people that are going to like me and my style and the way that I work and that's why there's clients out there for everybody. All got our own fit. So I think that's in one sense something a different client I worked with, we rebranded them. They were an IT CRM system but IT side of, and they had a new management team in the business that also wanted to bring it into more the people. So it's building that technical and that people side of things. And the logo ended up being something that looked like an infinity symbol, but again, it had overlapping points of elements within the thing. And again, that was steps in the journey because it's a customer journey that you're taking people on through our CRM system, the result of the project and the templates and all the rollout of the visual saved them a day, a month in time and money and it only lasted 18 months because it stuck the head above a parapet. They got invited onto international podcasts and webinars and things like that and they got bought out.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Interesting.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

So because we'd knitted story into what they do that they can use and talk about it, it lifted their visibility if you like. And they might not have wanted to sell, but they still got that coverage and they got that invitation to talk about what they do and they were seen as an expert because they've put a different spin on it rather than which CRM system do you want? Because loads of systems out there, but they don't suit everybody. But they made it unique to them because of the way that they delivered

Tom Haslam - (host):

It. I was coming back to what you said about not being right for everyone. I think that's good. It's a good thing because then you know that you're going to be working with people that buy into you and they're going to enjoy working with you, which is like we were saying this morning, weren't we about wanting to give value for people who really buy into what we're doing for them? And I think that's quite powerful as part of the storytelling sort of process. What we're speaking about is really important to realise that not everyone is for everyone and that's good.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

It makes it fun. I mean nobody likes to go to work to work, do they? No, because you can go to work and it's fun and then you're working with clients and sometimes we have issues and bumps in the road. We always do. And I think that's the misunderstanding and miscommunication and life gets in the way and causes people to behave differently and respond differently. Our timescales go out the window if you bring communication into it, which I feel comes back to the storytelling and it's how you work with and how you communicate that story. The more you can get that in sync with your delivery. So if you know your own story and your own values, going back to Mel's point earlier, it's far easier to attract those type of people and they call it nicheing and being specific and people go, I can't do that. Then I'll only have those clients. You won't bring the people to you that want to work with you

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

And like you said, not just the customers, the staff as well, because if you've got people around you who are, no, you don't want to be in an echo chamber, but people who are akin to you and have bought into your story, then the more likely to want to do well for you. You've got the right

Clare Froggat - (guest):

People around you. They want to be a part of that story growing and evolving.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

They, they're bought into it and they want to be part of it.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Measuring the impact is quite important. Obviously coming back to what we were speaking to obviously as a SEO digital agency, we're very focused on trends, data analytics, things like that, which is important also, but also the awareness side of things. The number of people that know your brand. Let's say you sell trainers, I dunno, white trainers, but people know your brand. They know added ask. Yeah, they're a massive brand, but the more people that know it, even if you're small, the better. We can drive lots of traffic to sites through the techniques that we use, but the awareness side, if that's added onto it, a part of that customer journey and funnel, then you're going to be more powerful, aren't you? Yeah.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

If you drive the traffic to that site and the why and the information and the lifestyle and everything that's there when you get there. Speaking on trainers, I've just finished reading Shoe Dog about Nike or Nike as the Americans call it. Oh my God, they so nearly went bust really and time. We were into millions of borrowing, it's like scary biscuits time when the real change for the company and its growth was when they brought in the swoosh and the name of the company when they changed it from Blue Ribbon Sports or something, it's definitely Blue Ribbon. They pulled it in Nike because she was the god of victory and winning and things like that, and that's what they started off with. Athletics and people like that and they knew that to compete with Adidas at the time when they were both coming up, they needed to go into apparel, not just choose clothing to normal people and their story is what helped them grow to be a global massive company. Now that most people know who they are, might not wear them or choose to wear them. The identity and the story behind it was part of the success and the growth of that company.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, that's really interesting actually.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Yeah, it is. I didn't know that about night and I would buy Nike products, but it just goes to show that the story's even more important when you're in the growth stage because it's what's going to gain you traction and then it snowballs and then years down the line. Now I don't know that brand story, but I would buy from them, but in those early days it was pivotal, so for small businesses, the kind of businesses that we all work with, it's really worth investing in it.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

They grew it by sponsoring athletes and tennis players and everything and they'd focus in on the swoosh on the side of the trainers and things like that. Almost down

Tom Haslam - (host):

The influencer side of things. Yeah,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Influencer in the seventies kind

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Of thing. Yeah, a precursor to that,

Clare Froggat - (guest):

But I do agree with you though that I think things to do with brand other than when you get loyalty and buying Nike and things like that have got their followers and there's people that have Ali Davidson tattooed on them. They love that brand so much. I think the technical side of marketing where you're digital and online, you've got the ability to track and measure and that's absolutely critical in anything marketing or branding wise. I think the more people talk about it and the more you hear it coming back and social listening I think is one of the techniques that you can measure things like that on, but it's quite technical and quite hard to do that side of it. The thing about it's consistency and time, the more consistent you are, one of the simplest things, whether be it good or be it bad, just be consistent.

Tom Haslam - (host):

No, absolutely. That's the biggest point. I think if you look just thinking, then when you're speaking, if you look at a traditional marketing funnel, you've got your obviously awareness, consideration, whatever you want to call it, making a purchase and then your loyalty beyond that brand plays a huge part in every step of that process. You're building the awareness through your story. They also might buy from you because they like that story and considering, oh, they're doing a bit of research, what are you all about? And then they come back to you because your story as well. So that's why it's so important through the whole phase of the funnel. In my eyes,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

That's interesting as well because it goes right through, like you say, every stage of the funnel and creates a customer that you can see

Tom Haslam - (host):

Sticking

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Around, sticking around, and so the customer lifetime value is more for that customer than it would be for somebody who was a one-time purchase big time because they're happy to identify themselves with you and body shop's. A really good example of this body shop was around when I was young and I'd started to, you would go out to the shops with your mates at the weekend and you'd go into the body shop and buy little bits and pieces. I still buy from Body Shop now, and I really like their ethos. I really like their outlook. I'm happy for it to say that it represents some of my values, so I'll stick with it. I'm a loyalty card member, et cetera. They get a lot of bang for their buck when it comes to marketing from someone like me, so that's how a good story can take someone throughout the entire journey.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Absolutely. It plays a part at every stage for me, and that's why it's so important to get it right. Just want to finish up on then, what do we think about future trends in brand storytelling? Especially with, I dunno, AI coming into the mix, people might consider, oh, I'll see if AI can put this story together for me, or something like that. What do you think about that side?

Clare Froggat - (guest):

There's always going to be stories told. I think it's the tools that we use to tell the stories or the way that we use in video and podcasts and blogs and websites. At some point in future that's going to be different. We might not know what it is yet. Again, for me, AI is a tool. I use things like chat, GPT, and I go, I need to write this and I know I want to talk about bullet point, bullet point, bullet point and and I go Talk to me about that. And it spits it out and you go, oh, actually that sentence and that sentence, and it speeds things up for me rather than, because writing's not my go-to skill. AI can probably help people to consolidate a story or communicate a story, but it's really dangerous, especially if you're going to use AI on websites because Google and search engines know that it's AI and you'll get punished for it.

Unknown Speaker - (?):

You'd probably be better getting a draught of something and then getting a copywriter or an expert to either proofread it or you give them the bun and get them to do it. If you're working with somebody that knows, just like my blogs that I've written, I just go talk about that AI's here. It's here to stay. I think it can make some things in life really easy. One day an AI robot can make me a cup of tea before I even have to get out of bed. Awesome. Please bring that in because the dog's useless. She doing it. Ask the book. Well, yeah, other ones don't exist in my house. I need big cupboards.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Just imagining this massive robot, this big bucket in, that's fantastic.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Yeah, I think AI's here to stay and it's only going to grow and get bigger, but hairdressing for example is a trade. You're never going to get AI doing that. It needs a person and a hand, and I think content and AI needs a tool to make it work and make it better. You can't compete with humans, I don't think. No,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

It needs an input, doesn't it? And that's what AI isn't very good at. It's the creative, it's the ideas. It can't do that yet or it can't do it well. So for now, we've all got a job, I hope.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I think we're going to have a job eventually anyway. We might be able to do more things because we've used AI to speed up the process and speed up the That's a good point. It's like editors in a newspaper. They don't write all the content, they just edit it, but the idea has got to come from somewhere. And I know obviously AI is also getting bigger in visual and imagery. I mean even have you tried

Tom Haslam - (host):

It on Photoshop? It's horrendous. It's terrible. You just, we had to play around with, it's so

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Funny. Oh my God. That's when I first started using the cutting tool. Point, point, point. No case. AI can't be authentic because it's manufactured. And coming back to storytelling and brand storytelling through visual or through words or through the talking and the way we do things, AI is never going to be authentic because there's only people that can be that.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I think that's a good one to finish on. Thank you very much. I hope you've enjoyed it.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

My pleasure. Yeah. I always love talking, especially about geek stuff, like designing like-minded people.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Well, if you think design's geek, you come and spend a week in here because you'll feel like you're not a geek at all.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

You feel normal.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Matt's a geek, like he's full geek. You should

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Kill Claire. You're 80 pound Pantone box.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, I've had some stick about them books.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Your Pantone's watchers. Yeah, I've got two. I'll never get rid of them.

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

160 pounds.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

I'll never get rid of them.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I paid from years ago, the agency, and it's just like I still use them.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Yeah, they have to be cutting the box done somewhere dark, don't they otherwise afraid. See? See,

Tom Haslam - (host):

This is the thing. I told you this. Oh my goodness. I don't keep 'em in the box though. This is where I've gone wrong. That's the thing, because you're supposed to on the paper

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Every year because the sunlight's affecting the colours.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I told you this. They just want to spend, you just want you to spend

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Sar. I was like to go watch phone, laptop, iPad. My brother goes, you'd buy slippers if it had an apple on it. I said, I might do if there weren't an I silver. Yeah, we've

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Got plenty

Tom Haslam - (host):

Of that in here. I'll tell you a story about someone who bought something from Apple, which was completely useless. Oh, Matt bought a microfiber cloth from Apple. It was 19 quid. Wow. Now that's next level, isn't it?

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

He's an Apple fan

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Boy. Yeah,

Melissa Healy - (Head of Content):

Unbelievably so.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And Josh, we're trying to convert to Apple. He's full, well, not full Android. He uses a MacBook, but we're trying to convert

Clare Froggat - (guest):

His, it's like me. I can drive a pc, but I'm Mac all the way.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Good to hear. Well, it's been good having you anyway, Claire, thank you. Be nice. Thank you for coming and see you soon.

Clare Froggat - (guest):

Definitely for a round of golf.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Let's do it. And that wraps up another episode of Marketing Labs, focusing on the powerful tool of brand storytelling. Huge thank you to Claire from Make A Brew for joining us today and sharing her valuable insights. It's clear that storytelling is not just about selling products or services, but it's about creating genuine connections and experiences that resonate with your audience from uncovering authentic stories to evoking the right emotions and measuring the impact. We've covered some good ground today, and I hope that inspires you to weave compelling narratives into your marketing strategies. Remember the stories we tell shape the perceptions and relationships our auditors have with our brand. Thank you for listening, and don't forget to tune in next time for more marketing insights. Until then, keep telling those stories that matter. See you.