Blab #13: Navigating Website UX

Tom Haslam - (host):

Welcome to Marketing Blabs. This podcast is brought to you by Marketing Labs, an expert digital marketing agency based in Nottinghamshire. If you're a business owner or a marketing professional looking for straightforward non-sales or tips and advice to help grow your business online, then this podcast is for you. Strap in, because we're about to reveal the things that other agencies would rather you didn't know.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Marketing Blabs, our 13th episode. Today, we're going to delve into the realm of UX or user experience, as most of us know it. Whether you are a seasoned digital marketer, a budding web developer, or simply someone curious about creating a seamless online presence, then this episode is for you.

So, joining me on today's Blab from the ML team is Matt Janaway, our founder and CEO. How are you doing, Matt?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Morning, Tom. Yeah, very good, thank you.

Tom Haslam - (host):

All good?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah. Pretty good today.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And alongside me, sat next to me is Josh Stapleton, our web development specialist. How are you doing, Josh?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Pretty good, thanks.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I'm surprised you unedited my script again.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I'm running out of ideas, 13 episodes in. Yeah, getting tricky.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Guru.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Master, what were the other ones at Code Aficionado, all that sort of stuff.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Stack Overflow Aficionado.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, yeah. You love all that stuff. And also with us today, we're fortunate to have Andy Golpys. I got it right, didn't I?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

You got it wrong, but it's wrong.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I got it wrong. Gold Pies.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

You'll need to record that again.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, I will.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

No, I like that as an intro. It's wrong. It's just wrong. Yeah, Andy Golpys.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Golpys.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I'm sure we told you a minute ago as well.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And he did as well. Yeah. Andy Golpys. Andy is the co-founder and creative director of MadeByShape, a renowned web design agency based in Manchester. Andy is a diehard Manchester United supporter. He actually started his journey as a university lecturer straight out of uni, I believe, for seven years or so?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

That's right. Yeah, while I built up Shape. Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Excellent. And obviously, followed the traditional path, college, university, working as a freelancer and then in agencies to where he is today with MadeByShape, so welcome.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, nice one. Thanks for having us.

Tom Haslam - (host):

No worries. Thanks for coming on. Excited for the pod.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah. Yeah. I love doing stuff like this. It's good to get our knowledge out there and share experiences.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, have a chat about the industry. So, the best way, should make a start then, shall we? I guess I want to start off around what UX actually is because some people don't understand what it is. There's a big difference between UX and UI.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

We were involved in a conversation this week about exactly that.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, exactly. I don't want SEO or UX in my website.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. Interesting.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It was an interesting conversation as well.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I mean, even if you have bad UX, it's still UX.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I agree with that.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

A website can't not have UX, can it? So, yeah, interesting.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I just think some clients don't understand what UX is.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah. You've got to try and keep it quite simple, haven't you? Like you said, you've got the messaging and everything around it.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, we don't actually put it in our proposals. We don't actually say UX or anything technical. We just keep all the language very plain, very simple.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Really?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, we're from Manchester. We're just very direct. I think maybe we give our opinion too much.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I guess it's a good thing in a way because I guess it's about being honest, isn't it, really as well? I think it's critical that everyone does take UX into account, especially in today's sort of digital landscape. It's quite important, isn't it? But we can talk about elements of UX as well. I mean, it's quite a broad topic, really, isn't it? You could split that into a number of different things, whether that's the interface design itself, the strategy behind the experiences. What do we think are the good building blocks of good UX? Does anyone want to start on that?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

For me, I think some of the main ones that jump out, probably navigation, that's one of the first things you're going to see generally or one of the first things you're going to interact with anyway. And if the navigation's poor, if you can't find the pages you're looking for, that's not really going to help user experience.

Other stuff, maybe call to actions. This one's more SEO related, but also works with UX, in my opinion, when you have anchor text. So, having descriptive anchor text, obviously that's very beneficial to SEO, but also it lets a user know exactly where they're going to be going when they click on a link.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Journey as well. Journey is massive for UX. Obviously, if you are sending people in different directions, there's multiple clicks before they get to where they want to be. That's going to have a big impact on user experience.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I think from my side, if I was explaining it to clients, it'd be more about structure and journey and making sure that that experience when somebody lands on your site is very easy to find where they want to end up or where they want to go. So, yeah, I mean, whether the design is good or bad, it should really be an easy journey for that person when they land on a site.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Zero effort interaction.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, it should be foolproof, really, shouldn't it? It should make them not fail at the end goal.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Simplicity.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Every end goal is different as well is whether you want them to make a purchase, or I don't know, sign up to a newsletter, whatever it might be. As long as you have that goal first, you know how to set up the UX.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, and the thing is as well, when it comes to things like user experience, ultimately people are very lazy when they browse the Internet, and you've only got somebody's attention for so long. The more work they have to put in to get to the end result, the less likely they are to do it. So, simplicity is quite important when it comes to things like this.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I think a lot of people over complicate it, whether it's a designer or a developer or an agency, whoever it is. I look at a lot of sites, and they're still hard to use. And I think for me that's the first place you should start. It doesn't matter, scale of projects, the budget or anything. Every website should be easy to use, and that is essentially UX.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I agree. I think I've always followed the mantra, you know me, my creative side. I've always, if anything, less is more. But obviously, it's a balance, isn't it, as well?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I think between letting the user make the right decision based on the end goal, showing the right amount of information, call to actions, can you implement that? So, what do you think about as an example, call to actions within head of navigation? Working on one for Arton, weren't we? Little things like that?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

So, yeah, more descriptive stuff in your head of, rather than just a simple link or something like that can be beneficial if it's not overused, I think. So, I think one of the biggest pitfalls with navigation is having it too cluttered. So, if you've got, I don't know, just a lot of links in your navigation, and if there's no structure or categorization between them, being able to navigate that is just a pain. So, yeah, keeping it really simple.

And you can use call to actions to highlight very key areas, and it's usually the stuff you want the user to interact with, hence making the UX better. But yeah, it does work.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I think for me there's some specific things that we probably do on 90% of projects. So, if you're talking about navigation there, when you land on the site, the navigation looks a certain way. But then as you scroll, it either disappears or shrinks to be smaller, but it's fixed. But then as soon as you start scrolling up again, that navigation appears again, just so people can concentrate with the content on the page, but then as they start scrolling, you know they're trying to move somewhere else so the navigation appears.

And then the other thing is the sticky call to actions. So, whether it's a back to top button at the bottom of the page or sticky to the right, inquire now button, bottom right, we pretty much do that on most sites now because we've tested performance, and it just works.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. And it's about distractions as well, isn't it? So, you've just highlighted there actually two or three really useful ways you can give that direction without distracting from the purpose of the page as well. And I think that's quite important when it comes to user experience because it's very common that people will just want to keep throwing features at a website, "I'm paying for a website, so I want it to do everything."

And they'll throw all sorts of different bells and whistles, as they like to call them, at a website. And actually all they're doing is distracting people, which is actually bad for UX. So, there's a few really useful things there that have been highlighted on navigation, on scroll, things like that, because what's happening naturally there is you are making them focus on the right thing. And then when the time is right for them to re-navigate and look elsewhere, you've got the option then to look around again.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I think if you talk about distraction there, we just worked on a project for an agency. And an agency website should be showcasing their portfolio as best as possible, show the case studies, and so if that website is over-designed, then that distracts from the actual content on the page.

And again, that can be called UX because the user is not really getting what they want. They're being distracted by the design of the site that's conflicting with every case study, which completely looks different, different colours per case study, a lot of images. So, yeah, I think that needs to be considered. And again, I think that just comes back to over-complicating things.

Designers are probably the worst because they want to make something creative and make it cool, and sometimes we need to strip that back because the user just needs to get that bit of information and inquire or buy.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Everyone looked at me then. I could feel Josh's eyes on me.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

To be fair, though, you're a very minimalist designer.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And it's a nice balance.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I can go a bit wacky sometimes, though, can't I?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Occasionally, but I think there's quite a common, especially in our world, people think that you have to go loud, and you have to go brave, and actually you don't because it's so loud that again, you're distracted.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Distraction.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

There's a difference between being loud and different. I think if you're in a certain industry and everything looks exactly the same, for example, accountants' websites, they'll all look exactly the same. They probably won't invest a lot of money into it. There'll be templated websites, whereas if you do that well, it doesn't mean it has to be extravagant. It just needs to be done well. Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Talk to me about, I'm interested to get your insights on popups, because I hate them. I think there's a small place for them, a very small place, and we have conversations all the time about them, don't we? But what's your take on them? [inaudible 00:10:58]

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Well, if you asked me that five years ago, then popups would be you'd interpretate that differently to you do now because you land on any site now, and you've got cookies, privacies, all these regulated popups that you need to include. Or some people just ignore that, but you should really have them there. So, straight away, regardless of content or upselling or providing a service or a discount offer, whatever it is, you've already got two popups you've got to close down most of the time, which just adds frustration to every user.

So, that then impacts on the actual popup that you want to use. When it comes to e-commerce, I mean, they do work. They do work, sign up to newsletter, discount code. The facts are there. It just does work. When it comes to service driven sites, personally, I try not to use popups on sites, other than if they wanted to sign up to a newsletter or download information. Popups do work to get email addresses and data capture.

Tom Haslam - (host):

More like very granular use cases though for service-based.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, yeah. I think I try to minimise it on service driven sites, but e-commerce sites, they just do work.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Sometimes you see it where, you can tell from a mile away websites that have pop-ups for the sake of having one as well. There's no real thought behind it or strategy. They're just there because they feel like they should-

Tom Haslam - (host):

Think they need it.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, exactly. And like you say, when you've already got a cookie policy, you've got already got all of these pop-ups. Sometimes what you're doing is adding to that frustration. And we all know the magic number, really, at least our industry seems to know. The magic number really is two seconds.

For every second after two seconds, you're losing a lot of your visitors. And if you're distracting them for the first chunk of that two seconds, it's going to cause you some of your own issues around conversion rates and keeping people on your site and things.

But I'm similar to you. I'm torn, because the stats don't lie as well. They do work when they're done properly, especially for e-commerce. So, I think it's about when you present them, how you present them and the purpose of them.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Well, it always comes back to that conversation we have pretty much on every podcast is, as long as there's a strategy behind it. You're not just doing it for the sake, and you're all in it for one goal, and you're going to stick with it, then it's going to work, isn't it? If you're just sticking it there and changing it all the time...

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I think there's some very easy tools that you can use to monitor performance, and you can trial it for two weeks. You can look at the results, if it's not working, take it off or tweak it and trial it again.

I think a good point you made there is about the initial two seconds. If you've got the initial two seconds of landing on the site, and you're already clicking cookies and privacies off, from a development point of view, it's very easy to time that popup. It could be at a certain point of scroll, or it could be a certain time after it, or it could pop up on certain pages. It doesn't have to be as soon as you hit the site.

Because essentially, if you're talking about e-commerce, when people want to use a pop-up, it's normally to get a discount code or enter their email address or get more information. That's normally just before they're going to leave. So, the discount code is better to get them before they leave, before they close the window. Again, very easy from a coding point of view, ping a popup, "Are you sure you want to leave? Here's 10% discount," and it works.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Also saves you 10% if they were going to buy regardless, and you were giving it away in the first two seconds of them entering the site.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It is common though, isn't it? There's a lot of Shopify websites that do this a lot, and the moment you land on there, you get that spinning wheel on the left-hand side, and you're literally just giving your margin away. Why don't you just wait to see how people behave first or what pages they're on? And then if you feel like they're at risk of not buying, then okay, give them the chance to spin the wheel and get a discount.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Unfortunately, I think that's because Shopify is so readily available to everyone, they just pick a template, fill the content, and just push it as it is with no custom tweaks, no performance insights.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It's all about testing, isn't it? And unfortunately that, Shopify as a platform, I think, probably the user-based test an awful lot less than other platforms would just because by default who it's aimed at. But testing is so important with these things. Because as you said, you might want to test how users are behaving, and if you can't put various rules in place and some logic to dictate what pages things like that should show on, at what point they're scrolling on the page or whatever it might be, or maybe their intent to leave the website, if you're not testing those things, how do you know how well they're working?

So, again, a lot of this comes down to testing. You might have a hypothesis at the start, and you've got to prove it. And by the time you've been through that process, you should be getting better performance out the other side.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I think while we're on Shopify there, I think one good thing about them from a UX point of view is their checkout is great.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

They robustly check the process, and the one step checkout does work.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, it is very good. And the idea of the, I think a lot of people use the Shop app, don't they, for a bit of a universal order history. You are automatically basically logged in, aren't you, to a store just because you've used Shopify before, if you have an account. So, all of that is quite helpful.

They have some very good pros, to be honest. Also a few cons, but it's a good platform for the right businesses at the right time. And generally as well I think a lot of the themes, the paid ones at least, they tend to be pretty good from a user experience perspective, generally at least.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, so yeah, we've talked briefly about some issues and things with UX, but I want to jump onto common UX pitfalls, if that makes sense, and we'll not call it frequent mistakes, but common mistakes that people make. I'd start with one in saying cluttered content or layouts. I think when people try and cram as much information above the fold, for example, or even below the fold or on a layout itself, when they're trying to put too-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

That fight with white space. That happens a lot, doesn't it?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

We see it a lot where people say, "Too much white space, let's get cram more content in." No, that white space is really useful.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's perfect.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, there's a difference between white space and dead space.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tom Haslam - (host):

You've got to let the content, in my eyes, breathe, and let people take it in. And it's what that content is as well and how you break it up as long as it's been broken up effectively, because essentially you're getting across a bunch of messages. What those messages are, we don't know, but we've got to try and structure it in a way.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

[inaudible 00:17:45] digestible.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, exactly. Don't just cram it all in just because you think, "Oh, I've got to get it all in." It's not for me.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

We always ask our clients that. If you've got six services, write them in a list of hierarchy, because there is always a hierarchy. They just don't think of it that way. They want to show all six services. They're all important, but you just can't do that online, especially the landing page. I think the one that I would probably mention is colour. Legibility is huge. You see so many websites that don't consider colour from a legibility point of view.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Like contrast. [inaudible 00:18:20] accessibility [inaudible 00:18:20].

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, accessibility-wise, illegible call to actions, text on backgrounds or text over an image that you can't read. It's so obvious that, it doesn't matter if you're a designer or a developer, if you're in the industry...

Tom Haslam - (host):

You know you can't read something.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

You shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I'm going to go with cluttered layouts, but it's a bit more specific. My take on this is, so specifically on mobile, having touch elements too close together. Also, this is kind of similar. Elements that shift or move when you're going to click on them or hovering on them and stuff like that, they can be a massive pain, especially if things don't behave as you expect them to on certain device sizes. So, for example, something appears, moves something else you were about to click on, and then you end up missing or mis-clicking, even worse, go to where you don't want to be.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

In Google's eyes, that, from an SEO side, a cumulative layout shift. And the interesting thing about this, Google obviously has a big thing at the moment for cumulative layout shift, and I was browsing YouTube last night. And one of the popups to say, "You might like this video," I went to click it.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

And it moved.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And then it moved.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I've noticed a few times, I'm not sure it was on Google, on some Google websites, I have noticed CLS, and it's, "Come on guys, [inaudible 00:19:36] after this."

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, it's quite ironic. I think my biggest pet hate, although this is really small, and I don't know why it annoys me so much. It's probably not a big deal in reality is those horrible social share widgets. They just really wind me up.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Because you don't use them, or...

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I just think we're beyond that now. The Internet has evolved. People realise if you want to share something, you can just grab the URL. You don't need to see all of these 64 different social networks that no one's ever heard of, just to click it and share through when you can just grab a URL. I just think they're distracting.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

See, I disagree a little bit.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

But again, what's the purpose of the page? If the purpose of the page is to get someone to share it, fine. If the purpose of the page is you've got a service you're offering or there's an e-commerce product, the purpose of the page is to get someone to buy or to get someone to commit to getting in touch, or the purpose of the page isn't to get someone to share it with people who don't really give a shit about your product.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I think it's placement. If you're talking about why do you use it, the placement is key. Don't put it at the top of the page. You can just share it and then go and scroll Twitter or X for a while. It should be bottom of the page, basically. Or as soon as you start going past halfway, then maybe something appears on the left.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I mean, is there a place for it on blogs or content anymore? Articles, things like that? [inaudible 00:21:02]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I think if done tastefully and they're not distracting, and that's the goal of the page, then fine. I've got no issue with that. It's more this uniform, "Let's just plunk it everywhere, and I just want people to share it." You've got Glen who runs a business who sells ladders, and he wants someone to share.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Oh, Glen.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, exactly. And he wants someone to share that he's got a new seven-step ladder on Facebook. Why would anyone on whoever's sharing that Facebook care about that? It doesn't make sense to the purpose of the page.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

No, it's nuts to put it across the full site. The old iPhone, he's just specifically talking about articles, so that tells you what I think of it.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that makes a lot of sense because actually there's a purpose there, isn't there?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

You want to drive traffic to that page, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. And that's useful in that case, but again, provided it's done correctly, you don't want to see all 64 social networks again that nobody uses. But if done tastefully, I think that's okay.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I think when you look at social media platforms, they actually handle that quite well. So, sharing, I don't know a Real or Instagram post, you just get the one share button, but it expands to show you all your possible options on your phone. Works a lot better in my opinion.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, [inaudible 00:22:12].

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, that's a good point. I think when you're talking about purpose a page there, we don't really get these requests anymore, but back in the day when I was starting out, a lot of people wanted to put social icons in the nav, which always baffled me. It's baffled me from day one.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

[inaudible 00:22:25] occasionally, like having your social links in the very [inaudible 00:22:27].

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I just say no. I'm like, "If you want that, you ain't working with us," because that's basic. Why would you just land on someone's site and then take them to your socials?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Send them our way, we'll do it for them.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, you're actually almost-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Just joking. We won't. We won't.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

You're almost sending them backwards because if you were on their socials, then they would want you to go to the website because that's where they're going to convert, and if you hit the website and it's going to take you straight into the socials, it's very counterintuitive.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

You're bringing them away from something you can control through to something you can't control.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Where they're going to be off on a real rabbit hole.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, exactly.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

On Instagram.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, exactly. They just get bored, and they start floating around. We all see it, and even people who pretend they don't use TikTok, they still do this. You end up in a rabbit hole.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

You're talking about you.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I do it all the time.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Matt's rabbit holes is terrible.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, I do it all the time.

Tom Haslam - (host):

You can tell when you're in one because you get about eight messages.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. Yeah, you do. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

So, as more and more users go mobile then, obviously shifts the impact, a UX decision slightly. Google obviously crawl in from a mobile first perspective as well. So, I guess with the shape of mobile UX, is there anything that anyone wants to say about how that is shaped or developed?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Are you saying shaped because I'm here?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

That's a nice plug.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's a key plug.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Perfect plug.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

For me, I think the size of elements specifically on mobile, so when you look at a desktop site for example, very easy to click on stuff with your small mouse, easy to navigate. On mobile, a little bit trickier. Some people have very large thumbs, some people have very small thumbs, and can definitely impact how you interact with the site. If you've got a tiny, tiny little X to get rid of a pop-up like we were talking about earlier, that could be a bit of a pain. Also, just your buttons in general, if they're hard to touch, hard to interact with.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Smaller real estate as well on a mobile, isn't it? So, you've got less. You've got less real estate to touch, so things generally have to fold in certain ways. So, I think CLS, again, just for those listening, that's cumulative layout shift, so it means whether layouts shift as you are navigating. I think that's certainly more important on mobile. I'd agree there for sure.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I think for me, when it comes to agencies or whoever's building the website, rather than thinking about mobile first, isn't it their job to make it look good on all devices? This baffles me. When you look at [inaudible 00:24:46], and they still do pinch points, which is basically they've got desktop, and then it looks ugly on smaller screen sizes until it gets to iPad, and then it shifts to a different size, and then it looks ugly again to different size. And then mobile, it looks okay. Why only do them three sizes? Shouldn't it just be fully responsive?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It's interesting. We were talking about this actually last week, was it? And this concept of, generally you'll create mock-ups on desktop first, won't you?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And I know that, like you say, arguably that goes against the grain to a certain degree, but you're absolutely right. It's about perfecting each viewpoint and making sure it looks great across all devices.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

When I think about it, I think it makes more sense. Maybe this is just because it's a developer perspective, but being able to understand how something will fold from desktop into mobile kind of impacts how you design.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Some people don't understand that process, though, do they?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

So, if we're talking to someone who's starting their own business, and they think, "Oh, I want my website to look like this," they'll be saying that for the desktop. And they won't know how it folds or how it is responsive on all platforms [inaudible 00:25:54].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Generally it is easier. It is generally quite easy to fold down instead of up though.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, we do exactly the same. We still design desktop first, get the sign-off from the client, and then depending on who the client is, what the budget is, some people literally just trust us to make it work on all devices. And because we're-

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

For sure, because they trust you.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah. Because we've been in the industry for 18 years, we know what we should be doing. Sometimes we don't actually design for mobile if it's not needed, but in other cases, if it's a lot of information, a lot of content, that sometimes you do have to reduce or change or design for mobile, but we will actually always do it second. Even if the percentage is 95%, we still make it look good on all devices. It still baffles me when agencies do that. I think it's just lazy.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, it's just following the herd, really, isn't it? I think it all started when Google had that massive shift towards mobile first indexing, mobile first crawling, and everybody sort of just not quite panicked, but they all just blindly followed like it was the right thing to do. But as powerful as Google are and as big as Google, it doesn't mean everything they say is correct. People can have different opinions.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I mean, while we're on mobile, what's your opinion on videos?

Tom Haslam - (host):

From a...

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Speed, size? Usability?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Speed, if you're not hosting them locally. Not hosting them on the site, shouldn't be too impactful if it's YouTube embeds or something like that. Yeah, if it is local-

Tom Haslam - (host):

We've tried local a couple, haven't we? A couple of external embed platforms, the Muse one. That was all right, it comes down, well, another one I was going to touch on in terms of pitfalls is obviously page load speeds. Obviously, video will impact that quite a lot.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

So, the interesting one about Muse, so we use Muse at the moment on our website to embed, don't we? And what's interesting there is the video obviously won't even load until somebody clicks play, so it's not really affecting page speeds in that sense, but there's a byproduct of having it there is that the JavaScript Muse file is actually quite heavy. I think it was the heaviest file.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, it is one of the heaviest things on our site now. We've done some heavy optimization recently,

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.So, it's interesting because even though the video itself and the video file isn't directly impacting load times, which obviously impacts user experience, the JavaScript files that are a prerequisite to using a Muse are heavy. So, yeah, I don't know. For me, I guess it depends how much value the video adds, and again, the purpose of it.

Tom Haslam - (host):

We see from, obviously, if you're thinking about the marketing funnel and brand awareness, we always try and plug video because it has the highest click-through rates and so on, but does that mean that it's necessarily needed on the website? It comes back to that same old conversation. Is the purpose right for it? Is it needed? I think in most cases we would always recommend video, whether it's video testimonials, video testimonials [inaudible 00:28:56].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

In the right places, video can be powerful, can't it?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Video testimonials are different because video testimonials are definitely powerful, that decision-making moment, because it's building so much trust, you don't have to try and convince someone to go. They basically watch the video, and if they're saying amazing things about you, they'll know whether they're lying, they're acting or not. If it's genuine, it'll be a decision-maker. I think more on landing of sites, if it's an auto-play video that, built into the site-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Like in the hero section or something like that.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

... Yeah, speed is always going to be an issue. It doesn't matter how small that file size is. Like you said, JavaScripts, whatever the code is going to impact, and then we can start talking about performance and load speeds and code and minimise code. But yeah, I was just interested because on mobile, obviously not every browser does auto-play either, so then you've got to have a fallback. So, then if most people go into the fallback anyway...

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

What's the point of it?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, so...

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

You're just increasing the size of the page for no particular reason. One of the ones I find interesting, which I don't like, I'm happy to say I don't like this, is when in the hero section there's a video that auto-plays in the background. I get the concept. I think they catch the eye. I understand it, but again, for me, I think they're distracting.

Maybe it's because they tend to go on websites that don't particularly think of, again, the purpose of the website too much. You tend to see them on websites where they'll explain what they do in a way that no one understands what they do. They'll say we create solutions for this and that and this, and no one has a clue what they do. They're the websites that tend to have the video backgrounds for me.

So, I think it's more of a correlation thing, but I don't particularly like them, to be honest. Again, I think it's a distraction.

Tom Haslam - (host):

The other thing that I always say. Obviously visuals speak 1,000 words, obviously, that sort of thing. From a creative mind perspective, I always think that... I think it's how people perceive that messaging. Obviously, the content is key, but how it's put together, what is the purpose of the video? If it's just a bunch of wishy-washy nonsense, then there's no point having it [inaudible 00:31:10].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

London skyline.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

It's stock. Yeah, stock. Like you said, that London Skyline stock, everyone knows it's stock. It's not really given anything. I think for me, there's one key point I would probably argue is showreel, if you land on the site and it's our showreel, and you land on another agency's site and they've got showreel, they'll still be completely different. Quality of work, type of clients we work with. That's an instant, "Wow, I want to work with them." But if it's... You know what I mean?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

If it's done in the right way, absolutely. Yeah. And the right kind of business. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. I think it's more... I think my beef is more with those London skylines.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Stock footage.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, for me, I'm instantly thinking of brands like GoPro for example, or DGI or something like that. With those it makes sense having the impactful video.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. No, that's a good point actually, Josh. That is a good point. And maybe a video production service, again-

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Makes sense there.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It makes sense in those kind of cases.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Application and purpose.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Again, yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

We've actually just changed it on a firework website. So, there was a video to show fireworks and create impact on London all year, but now we're coming to bonfire night. We basically just want to change it to performance only, so that's just gone to a flat image.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Interesting.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

So, there is different keys and timings as well. It doesn't have to stay the same all year. You can still change content. But yeah, I mean, for us, showreel is massive [inaudible 00:32:36].

Tom Haslam - (host):

It is a big thing.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

We don't have to explain anything. You could watch our showreel, you know exactly who we are and what we do. Without audio, by the way.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Interesting, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I did watch your showreel. Noticed you worked with Gary Neville.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yes.

Tom Haslam - (host):

What was that like?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, it was great project, to be honest. It was very smooth. It was a great project. I thought it was going to be a nightmare, but it just wasn't. Yeah, we created his brand website. Yeah, really nice projects. And off the back of that we've just done Sasha Wells as well. And yeah, two nice projects. Portfolio, basically sized, rebrand, really cool, and obviously the well-known people. So, for us it's easy to shout about, and people know who they are.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And as a Man U fan as well?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, I'm a United fan, yeah. He did actually say to us, "Right, what David's done." He kept talking that night about David, and obviously David Beckham. And my response to that was, "Yeah, but Gary, you're not David Beckham, are you?"

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Did you say that to him?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

You did?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, of course we did. Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

How did he react to that?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

He started laughing. He's not David Beckham, is he? No, I knew his purpose, what David's done in terms of content and brand and stuff.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

How he [inaudible 00:33:44] and stuff, yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

But Gary Neville's a right back, and he doesn't look like David, does he? Come on. But yeah, it's a nice site, fit for purpose. Not over complicated.

Tom Haslam - (host):

But that's a perfect point, isn't it? Because-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It's a different voice.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Exactly, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Purpose again, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

The UX of the site is going to be completely different. The messaging is going to be different. So, yeah, it comes back to the same thing all the time when you're specifically speaking about UX and things. So, it's quite interesting. I enjoyed watching your showreel, to be honest.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Cool.

Tom Haslam - (host):

So, just finally then, and I think we've talked about some important stuff there. It's quite interesting to get different perspectives on things. What do we think the future of UX is going to look like? Obviously, we've got [inaudible 00:34:26] AI coming into the mix, things like that. What do we think is going to be redefined from there?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I think AI is going to actually make a big, big difference in UX.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Do you think?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, I can kind of envision having a AI chatbot, probably a bit more advanced than what we've currently got, although what we have currently got is very advanced. Something that you can talk to as you land on the site and just say, "I want to know more about X." And it will either redirect you to the page that you want to go to, or it will just show you links to the page or anything like that.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Understanding context, I guess. The machine learning could be based on the business, the website, the content. I agree. I think that could be quite big. And then also leaning onto that voice, so potentially this, I don't know if this is a bit of a wild guess, but assuming that that became big, and we did lean on AI the way Josh is saying there, which I think is likely, interacting with websites via voice could become a thing. Having conversations with AI about what the page is about, what the service is about, what people have to say about it, about what problems it solves, those kinds of things, could also potentially become a thing.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

I can see the two interacting, actually. So, when I'm thinking of a more advanced AI, I'm thinking personal AI rather than a general thing that the website hosts. Maybe it's something that you take around different websites with you, so it's linked to you. It's like your accounts that you're using.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, that's interesting. If we go in more simple than that, then tools like VideoAsk. So, when you land on their site, it's got a video, and you're talking directly to that end user and asking them questions that they click through, and then you can give them more information based on that. I think that could go a bit step further through to navigation.

And obviously, we know about chat experience now is far more advanced than it used to be, where that can give you responses and information based on stuff that you type in, which doesn't need human, which was always a big issue. Who's going to sit there 24 hours a day replying to messages online?

Because ultimately people using that outside of hours because they're inquiring in the evenings or whatever, staff isn't there. So, what's the point in having an auto responder saying, "I'll reply tomorrow?" So, the AI on that front, I think is already good, but I think that's obviously going to go further.

When we talk about AI we're testing all the time with content, and obviously if you're talking about UX today, the content that AI is creating now, if you've got a process, is very good. And UX obviously is still important when it comes to content and qualitative content. So, the future for me, AI is ultimately a talking point.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Do you think augmented reality and virtual reality will become more of a thing when it comes to UX? I'm thinking specifically here. I think a lot of people disagree with me, and I'm okay with that because I'm not entirely sold on it myself, but I think it's exciting, this concept of... So, Apple for example, with their Vision Pro, that'll be coming out, I assume at some point later this year or early next year. People can interact inside an office through virtual reality, augmented reality. How will that impact websites?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

But elements, just for people listening, you can potentially have two, three different things going on in your own virtual world, but inside the room you're in, and they can interact together. So, for example, you might have a video widget screen, whatever your window, whatever you want to call it. And you can literally pick things up from various windows into others and things like that. That in itself poses questions for websites.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, it's like applications such as, I don't know, a kitchen studio and things like that. You've obviously got the walkthroughs that you can capture now, but will that be taken a step further where you can actually step into it and visualise it yourself, move things around? I don't know. [inaudible 00:38:28]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And you've got Ikea's website here, and you can pull in a sofa, but then over here you've got-

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

See it in your room.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Exactly, yeah. And I know they try to do that to a certain degree now, but it's a different level, isn't it?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, I think that's probably a good point, actually. A lot of that stuff you've mentioned is already achievable, but it's not very fine-tuned. I think having something like the Vision Pro or any other thing, like Oculus maybe or other VR, AR systems. Having a system in place, which I guess unites those kind of things together-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It's a universal, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Imagine if all websites used the same universal process for this, and you could pull in something from IKEA into your room, but then also a kitchen from Howden's or I don't know, and different elements from different places, and it was all universally. I mean, this is maybe wishful thinking, but I don't know. It's a potential. I don't think that's imminent, by the way.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

No.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I think this is probably maybe a decade away from at least being common. But yeah, it's potentially a future of UX right there.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I think for me, if you're bringing it back to websites and experience, restaurants, definitely if you go into a website and looking at the menu, I think we could push that further, not just looking at a photograph of what you're going to order. I mean, it already exists, really, that you can actually see the video content of each dish when you're inside the restaurant. So, I think taking the website before you even get to the decision point of which restaurant you're going to go to, AI, AR, just general content, the future of that is... I think could be pushed.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, thinking about AR, actually, assuming we get to a point where we have Google Glass type AR, small, something that you'd actually wear.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

24-7 wearable.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

UX kind of doesn't become a website thing then. It becomes a live thing, because everyone's going to be advertising you, I don't know, leaflets or menus, as you said. You could have a QR code or something on the top of your menu and scan it with your AR glasses, and then at that point, you're developing UX for AR advice rather than websites.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

For that advice, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you could imagine quite easily at that point, you're looking at a menu, and you're looking at a specific item, and then you can see video, you can see picture, you can maybe see reviews, people doing. You could even imagine actually being taken into the restaurant, and you're hearing the noises and things like that, watching the food being made and things like that.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

You're talking Black Mirror stuff now.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Potentially, but I mean, it is inevitable, isn't it? At some point?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It's just when, I think, and how the web interacts and integrates those kind of experiences into websites and how websites evolve. But yeah, you're right. We're probably way off that.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, it's very future, but also it's all doable currently.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

It's just we've not got a cohesive thing to do it with.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

That's right. Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

If you're talking about future as well, we're all in this industry. We all get paid in this industry. If you're talking about, okay, well, is our job still going to be here in two years? A lot of people are worried about that. Personally, I think with AI, it still needs human element. It still needs human [inaudible 00:41:37].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Makes sense.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

So, if you work with that, and you embrace it, then it's only going to aid your business. I don't think it's going to replace us.

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

[inaudible 00:41:44] as a tool at the end of the day, and it doesn't just do things on its own. It needs some intervention from humans.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

But also the less humans do interact and teach it, allow it to learn, the worse it will become, because it'll be learning from itself. So, you have to have that human element just for it to continually improve anyway. But yeah, there is a lot of worry about that. I don't really subscribe to it, to be honest. I think it can be a very powerful tool to lean on, but as a replacement for what we do, I think at the moment at least, it's not even really close. You were playing around with Illustrator yesterday, their new, so yesterday they released a beta, didn't they? For-

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, that was funny.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's actually quite cool. I'm actually impressed by it.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

I mean, I-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

It worked really well once.

Tom Haslam - (host):

I liked it. I really did like it. I liked the concept of it, but it's not going to give you the end result of what I could create, for example. I'm not blowing smoke up my ass, but I'm just saying when I tried to create a scene, for example, it wasn't clean. It was all right. I really liked the concept of it. And you can create shapes, icons, little things like that, so it could be quite good. I tried giving an example of, I don't know, a letter T. Come up with a T, and it was just like a little T in a circle, but it was like you'd used, I don't know... A standard-

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

[inaudible 00:43:08]?

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah. It was [inaudible 00:43:08].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Very hit-or-miss. The first one was superb, to be honest. But then the second, third, fourth, fifth, it was just like someone had opened paint and dragged some clip art in. It was dreadful.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah. I think for me, specific examples of AI replacing us, we've got a content team, and you have to go through back and forth process to get that process correct, and even when you go through that, the end result isn't still perfect. It still needs to be amended and checked. For example, there's a lot of AI stuff that we've been through, very heavy research, and it makes facts up.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

It's just notes. It just makes facts up. You have to fact check, and you still have to do the human touch. And then when it comes to design, there are loads of tools out there where you can go and say to AI, "Just make me a website," and they're just garbage. We're just not there yet. But in two years time, it might be people should be not concerned, but be aware of it.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Certainly awareness. Absolutely, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's great for ideation, creating ideas, getting ideas. [inaudible 00:44:11]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Provided the input is also great.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah. Again, the input's good. [inaudible 00:44:13]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

And this is why I'm less concerned because the input relies on somebody who is experienced, who understands it, who knows what they want out of it. If your input isn't good enough, the output is terrible, almost always.

Tom Haslam - (host):

It's almost dangerous in the wrong hands, if you imagine that.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Do you know what I mean?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah, because clients who just want a simple website, they'll just be, "I'll just do it myself," but they won't get what they need because it'll be flawed [inaudible 00:44:38].

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yep, yep.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

And the UX of design, everything. It might look all right on paper, but then it just doesn't work.

Tom Haslam - (host):

[inaudible 00:44:43]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

I suspect there'll be, yeah, I think there'll be a period of maybe two years where lots of people do go down that road.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

And try it, yeah.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Because, yeah, they'll want to save money, they'll do, but all that it'll do is they'll fail. The ones who do it properly will succeed, and people think, "Actually, that's probably not a great idea." I'm less concerned, to be honest. I do think there'll be a slow buildup to a day of reckoning where actually it does impact people's jobs. I think we're quite a long way from that, personally.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Are they the clients that we want anyway, that just want to save money and do it themselves? You could say that about anything. If I want to build my own house.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Helping your dad decorate.

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah. Won't have a clue where to start.

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Interesting. Right. Well, thank you, everybody, for the chat. I've enjoyed it. Have you enjoyed it, Andy?

Andy Golpys - (guest):

Yeah. Cheers for asking me along. I enjoyed it.

Tom Haslam - (host):

Yeah, good. No, we'll get you on again at some point. Matt, you enjoyed it?

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

[inaudible 00:45:38]

Matt Janaway - (CEO):

Yeah, great talk. Yeah.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And Josh?

Josh Stapleton - (Web Developer):

Yeah, always. Been a pleasure.

Tom Haslam - (host):

And that brings us to the close of another Marketing Blabs episode. Today we navigated the intricate pathways of website UX with the expert guidance of Andy from MadeByShape. We learned about the pivotal role UX plays in ensuring user satisfaction, the various components that come together to shape the user's experience, and the importance of adapting and evolving our strategies based on data and feedback.

If there's one key takeaway here it's that good UX is not just about aesthetic appeal. It's about truly understanding and addressing the needs of your audience. A huge thanks to Andy for sharing his ideas and insights on the pod. And to all our listeners, until next time, keep experimenting with UX and optimising your digital spaces. See you.